Poker Forum

Just completed a long study of online poker with the help of a mathematics professor and we bolth agree 100% that online flops are manipulated! We recorded over 5000 hands online and compared them against 5000 live hands and WOWOWOW what a differance! I suggest for your own assurance you try the same study and see for your self.

Yes in live games bad beats are going to happen but The person I worked with on this is convinced that poker rooms have "ringer" players and the program that suposedly randomizes the cards is set to control who gets the chips.

We seen 80% of our hands in tournement play and 20% in cash games and the live games were all tournements. The cards dealt online are juiced to increase betting and the speed of games and also more players are dealt premium hands pre-flop. We seen AK,AQ,AJ,A10 get beat by hands of less value 67% of the time online! Only lost 24% of the time live HUGE DIFFERANCE! We seen AA dealt 576 times online and it got beat well over 40% of the time online but still only 15% live. We seen 293 instances where 4 players got pocket pair pre-flop, 68 where 5 or more got pocket pair pre-flop. Live games we never seen more than 3 players out of 9 get pocket pair only one time out of 5000 hands!

Well I could go on with all the facts we discoverd so I say SEE FOR YOURSELF! Even if you make alot of money just go and try it you will agree that online poker is definatly juiced. Sites we used Partypoker,Pokerstars imho the 2 sites that make the most money and probably are the most honest BUT they even juice their flops lol. Live games at my house and at Brandford Casino.

If you still dont believe me I ask one last time go track 5000-10000 hands and compare live to online and see! There is just to much money going to foreign counties that I am now going to the side that wants online Poker banned unless its a site which operates out of Nevada,Atlantic City or Ontario because you just cant trus a company that purposely goes overseas to avoid prosocution.

Mike,

Over the years playiing online and live I believe they are totally different and I change the way I play for it. Yes, there are a lot more hands that seem unbelievable but by no means is poker rigged to let someone else win.

how did you conduct this study live? the Casino allowed you?

Well, I've never wrote them down, but I have played live an online poker about 7 hours a day for the last 8 years (long before poker was popular). Although it may seem high starting hands lose 67% of the time over 5000 hands, over a year, 2 years, or 8 years, they will win 90-95% of the time.

Poker is about betting. If you limp in with AA, KK, AK and allow 78, 34 to hit a flop, you're going to lose, period.

Tracking hands played, and won, in 4000 online TOURNAMENT hands is worthless. Redo your study in all cash games. People play completely different in online tournaments.

How did you see all the starting hands in an online game anyways? No poker site on the planet would let you do that, even if you were conducting a study with Stephen Hawking.

Online poker sites do not have a high percentage of quality players, as I do it for a living, and it is relatively easy. Thusly, crap starting hands are played a LOT and WILL have a lot higher percentage of winning over the same hands in live games because people don't play them....

With your horrible grammar, and even more atrocious spelling, I doubt you conducted a study with ANY professor, even Joe Shmo, from Podunk U.

Sounds like an advocate for the site mentioned. Take your propaganda elsewhere please, and have a nice day.

I think you had bad experiences from an onlin poker room.
Maybe is true that on an online poker room you can see more bad beats than in a live game, call it casino or a night with some friends, the reason for this is quite simple, in online poker you can see and play 15 times the amount of hands from a live tournament, because there is no dealer need it to calculate the side pots, etc, besides you have an specific time to act.

If you compared 1000 hands from an online poker room with 5000 from a live casino, I suggest you to re-do your study and compare 1000 hands agains 15000 or 20000 hands live. You'll be surprised with the results.

Another thing I want to add to this post is your last comment, regarding on line poker sites overseas, I just want to explain you that in USA territory is ILLEGAL to have a company like this, they are not avoiding anything, it's just they can't operate.

I don't want to change the way you think, I just don't want you to corrupt other people minds with ideas like yours, and I want them to realize what is happening, besides on line poker sites makes money from the rake and from the tournament fees, there is no way they can make money by making an specific player a winner from a table and or tournament. They don't even win from deposits and pay outs made by their customers.

In other words don't make your bad experience a bad image for on line poker sites.

yes my grammar is bad and no I didnt see everyones hands I could only record the hands I seen in showdowns. The person I consulted and that helped me is a professor in physics at my local college and all he did was help me determine a good way to compare and figure out percentages because I am not that good in math.
Yes I have had horrible luck online and great luck in live games so it leaves me to believe it rigged.

One big issue I have with online poker is that almost every single site is based in some country where they could possibly get away with all kinds of fraud and since its their software its to easy for them to do. Millions of dollars float back n forth hourly during online poker nowadays and I just think greed is to strong for cheating not to be real.

Maby its not the company but the software designer or service worker who knows something but all I know its something is differant online than real games.

Yes I did record hands and most of my live dealt hands were at games with friends and the few I did in the casino I had to remember so basicly I dont trust online poker and want other to be aware of my concerns. I am also going to see what I can do to get internet gambling banned or strictly enforced and no its not out of bitterness just what I think is right.

Please dont get me wrong I love poker just the real kind and after nothing but bad experiences online I just hate it lol. Its either its rigged or I have the worst luck one person could possible have online and the fact have gotten and seen so many bad beats one after the other online is crazy.

One thing I do take into consideration is that online players are a lot more loose and will call alot more so that would explain a few more bad beats but until I see proof I am sure they are rigged.

It's pretty scary that a mathematics professor doesn't understand that 5k hands is way too few hands to come to any conclusions.

The scope here needs to be much larger. 5000 hands is a large sample but by no means an indication of a reasonable one. You still will have quite the varience these are odds, not guarantees. If you took a sample of 1,000,000 it may be a better sample but it may not be good enough. You also need to take into consideration how you play these hands against your oponents and how many oponents are competing with your hand especially in the pocket As example. If you are not playing them agressive in no limit there will be lots of oponents who will see a flop and with all those hands against you someone will get lucky. Same thing in limit except it is harder to prevent this in limit.

Online casinos don't need to rig their games, they make money no matter what. Why would they risk someone exposing them and no one playing there ever again.

On the issue of prop players though, I know they are out there but they get no advantage trust me. They usually get a special rake back for playing in games that need to be saved or starting new games.

I hope this info is helpful and adds some insight to the conversation.

I can imagine a huge reason for online casinos to rig games, more money. In doing so they run the risk of someone exposing them? Please, like they would care. People like slickinfinity could shout at the top of their lungs from now until doomsday and it wouldnt do a bit of good. Why? 1. They are all located overseas. 2. Enough people make considerable winnings not to care about other peoples bad luck. and 3. There are plenty of bad luck players who will still play because they are addicted. There is an old saying about poker, its a hard way to earn an easy living... in real life, this is true... online people are fooled that its not because they see how many joe schmoe poster boys are out there wearing a partypoker or bodog jersey telling them "you can make it too".. Im not saying all poker sites cheat, but to say it is unlikely that some do is like saying your unlikely to get wet standing under a waterfall.

So why do you play online poker then if it is rigged?

Personally I don't dispute online poker plays differently but it is not rigged if I thought there was even the slightest chance in the back of my mind I would not play because it would always be there, in the back of my mind and effecting my play.

If you think it is rigged, just don't play it is that simple but I am telling you from experience. I have gone on extended loosing streaks of bad beats and bad play but that is normal even in live games. I am still a winner over all but some times in poker the best hand pre-flop or on the flop gets sucked out on and that is why poker is profitable because it keeps the people who makes those bad plays playing because they believe they have a shot at winning. But they don't really maybe for a few days or if they are lucky for a few weeks it will look good for them but in the end they are just donating to the people who play solid poker and deal with these beats as they are a part of the game.

i really think pokerstars is semi rigged to help the idiots or newbies. I still won on there but it should have been 10 times more. On 4th st, a 3 outter on the river does not happen 50 percent of the time in real life. They also put shills in cash tables to run off the sharks from swallowing all the fish. Ever notice someone call an all in, on the flop in a cash table, with trash no draws/ nothing, rainbow flop. Then Runner runner straight or runner runner flush. No real poker play would ever do this in a real cash table. By the way Celes kicks ass bustyblonde

Online poker is a computer program DESIGNED TO CREATE ACTION.

Unlike "live action", EVERY HAND in ONLINE POKER has a pair, some kind of straight or flush draw, or other situations where pairs play out.

rigged for action, not for who will win!

Montana

when playing online I sometimes assume the worst and that really helps my online game.

Slickinfinity,
You are correct. these people don't care about poker, they only care about making profits. online poker is nothing more than an arcade style fruit machine, designed to keep feeding the players that know they can win under 'normal circumstances' IE, not rigged. They've been shafting people over for ages, lets send these creeps back under the stones they arrived from.
The amazing technology we know as the internet has been used by them to cheat people out of their money for a long time, that same amazing technology is going to cos them lots of that same profit.
Lets work together to expose this scam and save countless more people being lured into the UNREGULATED world of online poker.

Its always people who have lost habitually who come up with studys and numbers of how rigged poker is, for people who win the problem of card manipulation does not seem to factor into the equation.

Well it is rigged and I did my own inverstigation and easily determined that, ONLINE POKER IS LOTTERY POKER!!! UNLESS YOU ARE A SCAMMER! Well guess what I have perfected a scam and am proudly using it to win lot of money now.

I dont even care if you think I am bull shitting here as I recently cashed out 25k on a poker site I will leave unnamed. I will say this to warn people though as it is soooo easy to cheat online AND SITE DO NOTHING TO STOP IT! Partypoker is the only site I know of that tracks for collusion and its evern possible there is done properly.

I feel no remorse about my current conduct either as I have been scammed now I do the scamming. GL trying to report me through my email to I already got all lose ends covered!

One again, there is nothing rigged in a poker site if they don't make money from your deposits or withdrawals, they make money from the rake, same as casinos. In tournaments they make money from the tournament fees, again, just like casinos do.

I just want to tell you again that all companies works outside US because is ILLEGAL for them to operate withn Amercan territory, not because they want to commit fraud or run away with our money.

I am sorry but in my honest opinion any person who thinks online poker isnt being manipulated is a outright fool. Just watch the hands that get dealt and how many bad beats happen and who is watching these sites? They have literaly free will to cheat because they design their own software and if not them then the workers who arent making as much as the higher ups will find a scam. If real live casino's are scams then online poker has to be 100 times worse. I honestly hope it gets banned but I dont think it will as its just to hard to enforce.

Ok - so let me get this straight.

1. Online poker is rigged by the sites to pay off the players that THEY want paid

2. There are far too many bad beats and suckouts in online poker for it to be legit

however:

3. You have figured out how to run a racket and scam money yourself.

Hmmmm...... either you weaseled your way onto the "cool" list at one of these rigged sites, or you just contradicted your own theory. If a site is rigged, no ammount of collusion (no matter how well done it is) would let you win that much.

Sometimes better to remain silent and let them think you are a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

BTW - collusion is illegal (not only in the US, but in MOST of the countries that host online poker sites). You can think you are getting away with whatever sort of scam you think you have going, but trust me when I say that the online casino has seen it 100 times before, and is probably about 7 days away from locking your accounts and taking whatever action they legally can against you.

To answer your last question: there are more bad beats in online poker because people tend to stay in hands longer with worse hands. It has been statistically proven that online players tend to play more loosely due to the fact that there isn't a stack of $20 bills in front of them to remind them they are really playing with money. Not to mention that a significantly larger number of online players are novice to amateur level, and most don't know anything about what the odds of making their hand are - thus they play worse hands longer, and are around to suck out that 2 outter on the river.

I won't even start on the fact that every online casino and poker room has their RNG verified by a 3rd party (all that are worth a crap anyway).

Sooooo...... sounds like you have become the very thing you came in here screaming about, someone who thinks they have online poker rigged in their favor. I think you are wrong about online poker being rigged, wrong about being one step ahead of the card room you think you are hustling, and one step away from getting shut down permanently.

However - advocating illegal actions such as collusion probably breaks the posting rules for this forum. Maybe a ban (or a "involuntary vacation" would bring you to your senses.

I don't advocate cheating in any way, our site has been set up to investigate online poker for all aspects of cheating, in order to help protect people from fraud.
I suspect Slickinfinity hasn't found a way to cheat as mentioned, but infact is so disspondent by the game feels this is the only way to respond.

Two wrongs don't make a right, if you cheat you ARE as bad as the site you're playing on.