Poker Forum

Thanks Matt for the very informative article. I think the main question, as you asked, Where was the TD? Sometimes common sense can go a long way. This situation didn't just blow up but slowly escalated which means it could have been prevented if some kind of action had been taken earlier. Hopefully, they've now learned their lesson and will be quicker to act next time.

outstanding article. thank you.

exactly the kind of article i have eben looking for in the days since the airing of that show. thank you.

I don't see anything that invalidates banning alcohol from poker tournaments.

If you can ban smoking you can ban alcohol. Anyone who has worked in, or spent much time in a bar knows what happens if you try and cut off a drunk - a big scene and half the time the cops get called. Bad for the game, bad for the other players when the Scotty Syndrome happens.

I didn't think it was interesting television, either. I've rewatched last year's HORSE FT several times. I won't ever watch this one again.

Where is The Other Side of the Felt #12???

These used to be under "Features" and now they're under "People". I usually do a google search to find them, and can't find a 12.

Thank you for the article it is extremely informative, however I think the suggestion of Scotty being banned from 2009 or even stripped of the h.o.r.s.e. trophy are in line with his actions. He is an embarrassment to the sport and he himself should be totally embarressed. To take such a prestigious title and trash it in the manor that he did is wrong. If I never have to see him on TV again that is ok with me.

I personally don't think scotty's comments on that other poker news site constitutes an apology. It frankly reeked of justification and excuses. If he has issued a stronger, more genuine apology, than I have not seen or heard about it. I think Scotty needs to be interviewed and taken to task during the main event coverage, and I will be as dissappointed in ESPN as I already am in Scotty and the WSOP (not penalizing Scotty, overturning the penalty on Hellmuth.....favoritsm much?) if this does not happen.

Beyond that, excellent article Matt. I am confident that this would not have been allowed to happen under your watch.

This is typical of Las Vegas poker. The "rules" apply, depending on who you are! Poker is full of drunks, drug addicts, thieves, liars, cheats, many who are "well known stars". Easy to prove, just research or watch poker as it shrinks back to what it was. Matt Savage is suppose to assist poker (and the so called World Series) "rise above" the bad images and by not enforcing the rules on Scotty, the World Series of Poker has only added to the notion that poker is not on the square (and it isn't - why allow "savers", percentage swapping deals, soft playing, chip dumping, obnoxious/unethical behavior???)

At the end of your article, you state you don't think fining Scotty 10% or banning him from the 2009 WSOP or banning alcohol are "valid" however it's your hope those in charge will "do a better job" next time. That opinion is as watered down and ineffective as the lack of response to the Scotty from those in charge at the time the violations were occurring. What in the world DO you suggest they do next time?

At the end of your article, you state you don't think fining Scotty 10% or banning him from the 2009 WSOP or banning alcohol are "valid" however it's your hope those in charge will "do a better job" next time. That opinion is as watered down and ineffective as the lack of response to the Scotty from those in charge at the time the violations were occurring. What in the world DO you suggest they do next time?

Start with cutting him off, then giving him penalties, and disqualification if his behavior persists.

I think it's pretty clear that Harrah's gives special treatment for stars.

At the end of Day 5 of this year's WSOP Main Event, Phil Hellmuth was abusive towards another player, received a warning, continued to be abusive for several more minutes, and finally received a one-round penalty. The next morning, he was granted an audience with Jack Effel, Howard Greenbaum, and Jeffrey Pollack, who decided the penalty was excessive and overturned it.

Anyone who thinks that an unknown player would have been granted such an appeal is kidding themselves. Why then should we not think that the lenience towards Scotty was not also based on his star status?

I just watched the show and... I am deeply shocked. How is it even possible to have such behavior without being stopped ? Nguyen and Flack were DRUNK and abusive in a manner we can not accept. As "Relentless" said, I doubt I could watch this episode again... or even watch an episode with Nguyen in it in the future, and I now that most poker players will feel the same. Not only Nguyen has to publicly apologize to DeMichele, Lindgren and the audience, but Flack has to do so and Harra's should prevent this from happening ever again.

Watching this man holding the Reese trophy was really a pain in the... "heart".

It was a first time, and I hope it was the last. Please do your job, TDs. Act strong, or the future of televised poker is in jeopardy.

(Sorry if my english is deficient, it is not my native tongue.)

I have lost respect for Scotty after his tirade. He should be punished for it, by keeping half of his winnings and donate it to charity in his name. Also I think that Harrahs should be reprimanded for allowing this to happen, by not adhering to their own rules, that they accepted from the WSOP. Scotty broke every rule for conduct and so did Harrahs, by not ruling on them. Scotty should also apologize to the Waitstaff, and not be allowed to play in WSOP 2009. Last but not least, the dealer at Scottys table should be reprimanded severely for not calling Scotty on his actions at his table and for not calling the floor person to the table at first seeing and hearing Scottys conduct. I really expect now to see the UNITED STATES step in and put a damper on POKER TOURNAAMENTS. This will be terrible for millions of people connected to poker-whether staff or players. Charles Griffin.

I like Scotty but as many poker players i was sad to see that final table.

MatthewSavage wrote

At the end of your article, you state you don't think fining Scotty 10% or banning him from the 2009 WSOP or banning alcohol are "valid" however it's your hope those in charge will "do a better job" next time. That opinion is as watered down and ineffective as the lack of response to the Scotty from those in charge at the time the violations were occurring. What in the world DO you suggest they do next time?

Start with cutting him off, then giving him penalties, and disqualification if his behavior persists.

I agree with you 100%...so why are you suggesting they do nothing to him now? Are you saying they missed their chance so now they can't do anything?

Matt, you mentioned about the player that had been DQ'd in another Final table, and while it wasn't the WSOP in Vegas, it still was a WSOP product (a WSOPCE) using the same rules (in fact the TD at the time quoted the main WSOP rules when he DQ'd the guy) that governed the Vegas WSOP.

Does that change what you had to say in the Article (where it was my impression that you considered it apples and oranges, since one was a WSOPCE and the other the WSOP in Vegas)?

I mean, shouldn't the rules be universal, especially after the powers that be have stated that they are using the same WSOP rules for the WSOPCEs to disqualify another player for acting the same way as Scotty did?

BTW, one other option in regards to booze in the events, is to perhaps say (like they did with iPods and such) that no booze allowed at the FT.

This also makes twice now that we the public have seen in the WSOP that Name players seem to get special treatment that Jane/Joe Players do not (with Phil Hellmuth being the other player to get special treatment after the fact, just because he was a name brand player or something).

The rules should be for everyone, not just name players.

I propose major tournaments start fining players monetarily as well as the existing penalties for missing hands. I have advocated for some time the elimination of serving alcohol during tournament play. Taunting of a player in any form should be penalized. All three final participants were guilty of taunting at one point with Scotty being the most egregious. This is another good case for having uniform standards with clear cut rulings that are enforced in all circumstances. The dealers also need to be part of the process of enforcing the rules for those times when a floor person is not nearby. The World Poker Association requests all members to abide by the WPA Code of Ethics which can be found at https://www.wpapoker.org/index.php?sect=rules&pg=code-of-ethics. We need to eliminate the gray areas to have our game recognized as a professional sporting competition.

Jesse Jones
Founder & Chairman
World Poker Association

Matt, I have the utmost respect for you and what you have done for the game. I also understand your difficulty in really coming down on the tough side of this issue. But I completely disagree with the assertion that nothing should be done to penalize Scotty Nguyen after the fact.

This sport needs its organizers, or governing bodies in the parlance of other sports, to protect the image and integrity of the game. When there is a fight on the baseball diamond, the players involved are fined and it is made public. This serves a very very important function in baseball, football, etc. in protecting the image of the sport. But it would serve an even more important function in poker since the vast majority of people who watch the sport also participate in the sport. To allow a major incident like this to go by without publicly penalizing the player involved sends a horrible message to those who participate in the sport online, in casinos and in their local poker halls.

We already have a terrible situation with online poker where it has come to the point where virtually anything goes in the chat window. I have complained about abusive table language to the administrators at Pokerstars and been told that "smack talk" is part of the game. Far too many casinos now also take this approach and fail to control the abusive and aggressive talk that many players use to gain advantage in the game.

To allow this highly publicized HORSE incident to transpire with no public penalty for the player involved does nothing but reinforce the idea that any sort of behavior is acceptable at the poker table, when in fact many tournament rules say the exact opposite as you have so clearly pointed out.

The WSOP management, in the absence of any other governing body, should penalize Scotty, or at least come to some agreement with him on some publicized action, beyond a simple apology, that clearly sends the message that this kind of behavior, or anything even remotely close to it is not acceptable in public tournaments or cash games.

This is what is boils down to. Well known poker players(high rollers)get special treatment. Who is at fault here....let me see...hmmm...the dealer, the wait staff, and last but not least the tournament director. If one of them would have enforced the rules none of this would have happened.

MtMike wrote

This is typical of Las Vegas poker. The "rules" apply, depending on who you are! Poker is full of drunks, drug addicts, thieves, liars, cheats, many who are "well known stars". Easy to prove, just research or watch poker as it shrinks back to what it was. Matt Savage is suppose to assist poker (and the so called World Series) "rise above" the bad images and by not enforcing the rules on Scotty, the World Series of Poker has only added to the notion that poker is not on the square (and it isn't - why allow "savers", percentage swapping deals, soft playing, chip dumping, obnoxious/unethical behavior???)

You are never going to stop savers or percentages swapped are never going to be stopped but they do need to be in the open in my opinion.