Poker Forum

It appears to me, judging by the responses on this site, there are a lot of recreational poker players who are active on this site.

I personally fly from Alaska (where I currently reside) to LA, (about every 6 weeks or so) to play in the Commerce (10/20 N/L) 10/20 N/L allows me enough of a win to cover my "nut".

I am amazed at internet poker supporters, knowing they have been cheated (UB scandal), knowing a phone line can connect two players where they can share information in a game.

The only thing I can figure is, these players are recreational players, not trying to make enough money to live off of poker. Why play when cheating is so easy. How do you know you are not playing a "set-up"? Tournaments included!

Playing Poker Tournaments is high variance and a entirely different way to try to cash in at poker and earn a living. Most of the well known tournament donkeys (not all) are constantly borrowing or being put in, playing for a piece. Many of these famous personalities, just blow the dough. (many just disappear - whatever happened to --------fill in the blank)

There are many articles on the Big Games, and the probability of many of the players in that game being sponsored by one individual, to take down the "live one" ( whether the live one is: guy, flynt, busse whoever it may be) This "corporation poker" in the Big Games has been going on for years, both on the internet and live. (yes, Doyle and Chip)

And Yes, I do know Russ Hamilton, Howard, Fred David, Annie Duke, PH and many of the "old school" players who helped build the industry to where it is today.

Be aware, is all I got to say.

In the world in which I play poker, the minimum level to "grind" a living is 5/10 N/L, or maybe 15/30 limit up. Many venues do not offer those games.

While each poker players "nut" is different, I am curious as to what level a lot of you play at. Feel free to respond. I can take the flaming. Just curious is all.

While I am only a recreational player. I am again amazed at your level of ignorance.

So the big game is fixed. All online poker is fixed. I guess the only game that isn't fixed is the 10/20NL game in which you play?

There are hundreds of players out there that make there living from internet poker. Some of which "grind" as low as 8+ tables of 1/2NL. So to assume that all internet players are recreational is an extreme oversight.

Your life could/would be a ton easier if you would get over your fear of the online game and give it a real try. Just think of all the money on flights you could save. Not to mention the increase in winrate and reduction of variance by being able to play just two tables instead of one live

Oh, and its not exactly called grinding if you only go play every 6 weeks or so. Thats called I work 8 or 9 times a year.

without reading your post i would say to be able to live comfartably not worrying about bills, being able to support your family and having a little cash left over at the end of each month

Edit/; ok just read your post my post doesn't really answer your post just the topic title, Vic your post rocked

I'm absolutely not going to flame at you, MtMike. From this post, I can finally see where you are coming from. Most players cannot afford to fly down to LA and play in a $10/$20 game. I'll try to address each point clearly and without any sarcasm.

1. Yes. This site is mainly made up of recreational players as most online sites are. As recreational players, online is the easiest and most readily available poker game that we can play.

2. You are right. Online games can be cheated by both the players and the operators. There are too many cases where players or sites have been caught to dispute that. But in most games, this is not the case, especially at the recreational players level of play.

3. There is a huge variance for tournament poker, as you said. This is the glitz and the glam of poker. Other than High Stakes Poker, there are no televised cash games, only tournaments. Many amatuers and some pros want the recognition that comes with winning one of these high profile tournaments.

4. I have read articles and actually witnessed cheating going on in both live cash games and tournaments. As long as there are humans involved and the possiblility of cheating exists, unfortunately there will be those that lack the character to play it straight and try to benefit by cheating.

Finally, on your actual question, it depends on what level of living expenses you are at in your life. I agree with you that most would find the $5/$10 NL as the minimum but I've known a few that survived at the $2/$5 NL level. It required that they put in more hours to make a sustainable existance.

Good answers davega

As far as my "fear/knowledge" of online games - one has to have their blinders on to not to know of the amount of collusion/cheating involved. While the micro limits may be "safe", the newbies would be wrong to assume this. As stated, I know Howard, Ivey, Russ Hamilton, maybe the viewers should do more research about poker! I have been around poker a very long time, all things are not as they seem! Here is one quote from a article about the game involving Larry Flynt: (Larry Flynt
The Hustler king gets hustled
Hustler's Larry Flynt's has made millions in the porn industry but poker is a different story altogether...
By Michael Kaplan November 2008

"This is particularly convenient for Ivey, who, according to Eli Elezra, will sometimes back half the players at the table. 'Without him backing these people, there would be no game,' says Elezra, who's played 40 or so times. 'Who has that kind of money?' Though Elezra doesn't normally dig single-game poker, he makes an exception in this case. 'Larry is a nice guy,' Elezra enthuses, 'but he plays way too many hands. That is why everyone plays with him. He's won a million dollars a few times, but, at the end of the year he loses what he is supposed to lose."

To think this "collusion" does not happen in big games with Guy, or Jerry B. or Rene or other "whales" that can afford to lose, would be naive! I could tell hundred of stories of the old days and the "team play" that occurred. Those stories have been told, all one has to do is research. Poker has not changed!

Here is devega's truthful acknowledgement.

4. I have read articles and actually witnessed cheating going on in both live cash games and tournaments. As long as there are humans involved and the possiblility of cheating exists, unfortunately there will be those that lack the character to play it straight and try to benefit by cheating.

what bothers me about everything you have ever said on this forum is...

It is ALWAYS NEGATIVE!!!

Until I read one positive thing from you I will continue to feel as if you are a grumpy old man who is full of nothing but conspiracy theory. I seriously hope you dont have this outlook on everyday life.

Name an honest business in the modern world?

It is human nature to bend the rules. Hell, it is Capitalism at its best.

to answer the topic title: I know a person that makes a VERY good living grinding 25NL online, yes, 0.10/0.25 blinds.

online poker is not as corrupt as you may think, Mike:

The collusion you speak of is merely the good players staying out of each other's way, while extracting as much money as possible from the fishes that play with them. This is done on every level, live and online, and it makes sense: why would you take on good players, while you can easily beat the fish at the table?

[quote]It is human nature to bend the rules. Hell, it is Capitalism at its best.[quote] from Viticus[
/quote]The collusion you speak of is merely the good players staying out of each other's way, while extracting as much money as possible from the fishes that play with them. This is done on every level, live and online, and it makes sense: why would you take on good players, while you can easily beat the fish at the table? from Rockbottom87
These quotes are just two more cheats, acknowledging their exsistence. FYI - I play my hands against all players - I do not stay out of anothers way. I play live in LA because the collusion got so bad in Las Vegas. The Commerce has done a decent job of stopping this "playing around each other" (not completely - but better than the Bellagio)
Poker can be a great game, if played on the up and up. It is this wink and ok that it is normal to cheat demonstrated by Rockbottom87 and Viticus in their posts that has always kept poker from being legit.
What a sad way to go through life, thinking[quote] It is human nature to bend the rules. Hell, it is Capitalism at its best. = Viticus
Flame away! You have already acknowledged your position as a cheat!

haha. you are telling me that you make a living playing poker but dont play differently against each opponent? you play every hand the same against everyone? you dont think twice about calling when a nit raises preflop?

Avoiding a good winning player in any game is not cheating. it is smart.

If you went to the commerce and negreanu, ivey, eric seidel, eric lindgren, doyle, etc. were sitting in your 5/10 game you wouldnt select another table?

If you opponent has just shoved his chips in on the river and one of his cards accidently flips face up you wouldnt look at it?

Come on. You must be the purest person I have ever met. You have never bent a rule? Never jay walked? Never got a little too drunk and walked outside? Or are you just one of those people that likes their image? Likes people to think they never make mistakes, or do anything wrong. That is a sad way of life. Let us all cover all our problems with this big white blanket. Let us all put on a face every morning and be who the world wants us to be. Let us pretend that we are one of the good guys in an ugly world. let us pretend that the world would be such a better place if everyone was just like me.

I would rather be a cheat.

I did not say I don't play my hands differently against different opponents - I said I play my hands against ALL OPPONENTS. Two different equations.

I would rather be a cheat.

from Viticus

Viticus you have established who and what you are.

MtMike wrote

As stated, I know Russ Hamilton.

as have you!

OK, guys, we're drifting past the line. I think that (besides going away from the topic) there's a misunderstanding on what's being said. Correct me if I'm wrong.

MtMike's point is that soft play and collusion is too prevalent in Vegas and that the Commerce has a better handle on things. This doesn't mean that each hand isn't played differently against each opponent. But it does mean that the player is trying to take the stacks of ALL of the other players rather than just the WHALE at the table. How many times have you sat down in a casino and found out that you are one of the only players that isn't a regular there? Many times the regulars will tag-team against the "tourist" while never challenging one another for their stacks. THAT is what MtMike is against and I'm pretty sure that Viticus and RockBottom are also against this.

to answer the topic title: I know a person that makes a VERY good living grinding 25NL online, yes, 0.10/0.25 blinds.

How many tables - what is a "very good living" - what is persons "operating costs/nut"?

davega=right on!

The only thing I can figure is, these players are recreational players, not trying to make enough money to live off of poker. Why play when cheating is so easy. How do you know you are not playing a "set-up"? Tournaments included!

wouldn't the simple answer be, because they are recreational players
and play cause they... enjoy playing

Assistanc3 wrote

The only thing I can figure is, these players are recreational players, not trying to make enough money to live off of poker. Why play when cheating is so easy. How do you know you are not playing a "set-up"? Tournaments included!

wouldn't the simple answer be, because they are recreational players

and play cause they... enjoy playing

Oh, sure, if you want the SIMPLE answer.

I will say that I don't understand sitting at a table online and having somebody there from Las Vegas. Isn't there a live game they'd rather be playing? I know I would be.

MtMike wrote

to answer the topic title: I know a person that makes a VERY good living grinding 25NL online, yes, 0.10/0.25 blinds.

How many tables - what is a "very good living" - what is persons "operating costs/nut"?

davega=right on!

dunno exactly, but iirc it's about 15 tables. very good living means he has a big car, doesnt care how much a drink costs etc. just care free living.

operating costs/nut is a term I don't know, please explain

operating costs/nut is a term I don't know, please explain[quote]
My personal operating costs/nut is $30k a year. $30k will pay all my bills and leave some R&R funds. I have to play poker at high enough stakes to earn that amountt. I personally play $10/20 N/L holdem and fly to LA to make the money I need. (about 8/9 times a year - about 2 weeks each trip) Poker is a business to me. (not recreation)

And that's where the answer to "How high must one play to make a living at poker?" is different for everyone. $30k/yr and I'd lose my house, cars, etc. So it depends on your personal expenses.

davega

FYI - I am a poker player!

My property, cars (04 Jeep/04 Chevy Truck) are all paid for.
I deal in cash. If I can not afford it, I don't buy it. This makes me really unique in this era of credit and instant gratification (I am old) and America in a major recession.

Money Management - Game Selection - the most important priorities if one wants to play poker for a living.

I hope you didn't take it as a slight because it wasn't meant to be. I just meant that each person has different obligations depending on where in life they are. A 20 year old single person would have much different obligations than a 40 year old married with teenage children. That's all I meant.