Poker Forum

MtMike wrote

America in a major recession.

Off topic: Correction. No we aren't.

On topic: i quit playing on line for $$ altogether. i'm not convinced the hands are completely random. The sites are businesses maximizing profits. At minimum, the play is certainly not regulated. i don't feel comfortable in that atmosphere, so i quit playing. Some do; I don't. i had moderate success in strictly small dollar stuff, but i quit playing.

So i went to the riverboats about once every 6 weeks or so. i found like you've been saying that half the table knew each other and wouldn't challenge each other. So i quit going there too. i never lost money there in 9 trips playing 1/3NL, broke even a couple times and came out ahead the rest.

I felt that the odds were against me the way the regulars played pseudo-together. i wasn't impressed with their play, but felt like i was missing something, like an inside secret that even the dealers knew, when i sat down.

Now i play in a local monthly home game and a small local league. Great fun. There isn't really anywhere else for me to play.

I think you are all saying the same thing. Online poker does have more "shams" than live poker. However, I would attribute this fact to having more hands played and people playing. In live poker it exists all the same, I was just in New Orleans and had one of my very rare losing trips to a poker room. The main reason I lost was because I couldn't find a table that wasn't all locals. But, I played and by the last day had finally learned how to play against them and started winning some of my money back.

Take away pure fraud and regardless it is still a game. Whether it is a non-random random number generator, collusion by two or three players at a table, or even donk's that love to call an all in with 2-7 off suit...regardless, I have found that style can be adjusted to take advantage of this. If you are smart enough, you will find a way to outsmart it. Sure, you may lose in the beginning, but with time, you will make it up.

For the recreational player, they don't worry about finding a way to beat it...after all, $20 lost over a day or two beats what they would have lost going to the movies or bar. And for the pro player, it gives them a greater challenge and possibly a greater reward.

So are you saying go ahead and sit down with the collusion guys? Their style of play is pretty typical for a cash game and easy to see what they are doing but i don't like the 4 against one environment.

i'm looking for alternatives is all. My solution is not to play at all and that sucks.

If it is 4 against 1 and no one else at the table, I wouldn't sit. But, if it is a 10 person table (NL Holdem) and the whole table isn't "out to get me" then I would give it a try. You may lose a little, but you will learn a ton. I honestly view it is a training ground. I don't play for stakes that amount to anything more than what I get paid for a couple of hours of work. The more mistakes I can make now and learn from, the better off I will be when I get to those higher stake games down the road. But, if you play extremely tight and aggressive, I think you can atleast break even on a table of 10 with a couple guys who are colluding.

But, this is all live games. I think it is harder to spot and play this on the internet.

maybe I just dont see it but even if 3 people are colluding in a 6-max game how big of an advantage can they have on you?

can someone explain to me how they are going to completely run me over?

in essence they play 3 hands at once, and choose the strongest hand among them

so they arent playing each other. which means essentially it is a 4 handed table instead of a 6 handed one. basically this will hurt each of their individual winrates and create fewer multi-way pots.

i just dont see how this can be that great of an advantage.

it's a 4handed table with one player getting hands that are 3 times as good, so that's a big disadvantage for you.

also, they can simply raise you out of the pot when you show decent strength, so you will fold your AJ/77 or w/e.

The hands they get aren't three times as good. They just have a couple of them to choose from. But, how many times have we heard play the player not the cards?

In my opinion it just means you have to tighten up your play and do a lot more check raising when you do hit. They will look to bully you out. Just make them pay for it and put them on tilt a little bit. Being patient is probably the hardest thing.

I would say playing with three people colluding it probably like playing against (excuse the spelling) Phil Hellmueth or Daniel Negranu.

But you don't know they are playing together, for all you know is that they all get a fair share of raises in.

When you are playing a live game, you can definitely tell when players are playing together. For example, in the game I was playing, there were two guys (I know they were both locals because most of the dealers knew them). One guy was second to act on a 9 handed table, he made a 3x BB raise. Everyone else folded except the small blind who called. They both checked all the way through. One had pocket AA, the other pocket QQ. Once it was just them two isolated, they didn't even bet their hands! When either of these guys were in with other players, they were very aggresive and they even would help protect the others blinds! If you can't notice that and know that they are playing together, then you need to come play at my table.

yeah ok, I prolly could see that kind of collusion, but if the cheaters are GOOD, you won't suspect anything.

Edit: the two players in your game were complete idiots that they let those two hands get to showdown, utg shouldve known the other guy had aces, and shouldve just folded.