PLO: Playing a straight draw on a flush draw board

I have problems putting my opponent on a made straight on the turn / river, when there's a flush draw on the flop. More often than not, when you get action on a flop like this, you're an underdog for sure.

Still, I often get to see nothing but an open ender when it comes to a showdown on the flop / turn, which kinda surprises me. Here a few examples:

Poker Stars $0.50/$1 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players

UTG: $110.75
Hero (MP): $103.75
CO: $73.55
BTN: $130.65
SB: $165.85
BB: $60.00

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is MP with 9 2 Q T
1 fold, Hero calls $1, CO raises to $4.50, BTN calls $4.50, 2 folds, Hero calls $3.50

Flop: ($15.00) 7 8 3 (3 players)
Hero bets $12, CO folds, BTN calls $12

Turn: ($39.00) 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $25, BTN raises to $112.10, Hero calls $62.25 all in

River: ($213.50) 4 (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $213.50
Hero shows 9 2 Q T (a pair of Fours)
BTN shows 5 7 A 6 (a straight, Four to Eight)
BTN wins $210.50
(Rake: $3.00)


Poker Stars $1/$2 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players

MP: $82.90
CO: $180.55
BTN: $172.45
SB: $286.00
Hero (BB): $310.40
UTG: $124.85

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is BB with Q K Q 3
UTG calls $2, MP calls $2, CO raises to $8, 2 folds, Hero calls $6, 1 fold, MP calls $6

Flop: ($27.00) J 8 T (3 players)
Hero bets $20, MP calls $20, CO folds

Turn: ($67.00) Q (2 players)
Hero bets $64, MP calls $54.90 all in

River: ($176.80) 5 (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $176.80
MP shows 6 8 9 8 (a straight, Eight to Queen)
Hero shows Q K Q 3 (three of a kind, Queens)
MP wins $173.80
(Rake: $3.00)


Poker Stars $1/$2 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 5 players

BB: $67.25
UTG: $276.30
Hero (CO): $235.25
BTN: $85.00
SB: $101.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is CO with A J Q 7
UTG raises to $7, Hero calls $7, BTN calls $7, SB calls $6, BB calls $5

Flop: ($35.00) J 4 Q (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $22, BTN folds, SB raises to $94 all in, BB folds, UTG folds, Hero calls $72

Turn: ($223.00) 5 (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($223.00) 2 (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $223.00
Hero shows A J Q 7 (two pair, Queens and Jacks)
SB shows A 9 K T (high card Ace)
Hero wins $221.00
(Rake: $2.00)


Is playing a straight draw on a flush draw board not such a bad idea after all? Should you play them in cash game but not in tournaments? Opinions?

in hand 1 I see he has a pair on the flop as well, which could be great for a holdem player, where a pair and a straight draw is a great holding.

hand 2 he has a set on the flop, can't really blame him there.

in hand three he has a wrap, and he even blocks one of the flush outs, so can't say I hate his play.

all in all, only hand 1 really seems odd, which is pretty consistent with the amount of donks

Poor choice of examples.

What I'm asking is: Can / should you play an open ended straight draw / wrap in a tournament / cash game with a flush draw on the board?

I don t really play this game a lot but the basic experience of it tells me that a flush draw on the board is scary. It is scary for you but it is also for your opponent.

Will your straight be good if you hit? It probably will unless your opponent has a flush.

Does he have a flush draw? Depending on the opponent of course, betting your straight draw should give you an idea. This, of course can be dangerous if it is not a deep stacked game as you may put your stack in danger or get your short stacked opponent to move on you and leave you with a difficult decision.

I think it is interesting in a general way to consider betting a draw that is not the best possible draw because:

-you can win the pot directly ( very profitable and this is I think the main reason to bet this kind of hands )
-you can get infos about your opponent holding and still get paid by lower holding on later streets if you hit.

If you don t bet it:

-you can end by winning a pot with your straight but a small pot.
-you let your opponent draw for free to a possible better draw.
-If you hit you don t have any idea of what bet could be paid by your opponent.

Note that I am talking about considering and not betting every draw

On the same kind of dilemma, I think raising an opponent bet with a draw can be a option to consider against some players for the same reasons above.

Of course I might be completely wrong, if so, let me know

you pose an interesting question. the answer, as usual, is that it depends.

you want to be drawing to the nuts in PLO. A big wrap, like 8910j on a A76 board is so strong that I dont think you need to worry about a flush draw. Obv., if the flush hits the turn and the guy insta-shoves you have to think you are behind. However, you need to remember that flushes wont hit any more often in PLO than they do in Hold'em. Its just that when they do hit more people have suited whole cards.

A regular open ended straight though? I wouldn't be going over board with it on a two suited flop. I might call a small bet but you also have to figure that you wont get paid off extremely often because the straight is pretty visible.

One thing I do feel the need to mention is you might want to be careful w/ K or Q high flush draws. Im not saying dont play them I just think often if you play them too aggressive you will end up not hitting enough and then when you do someone will have the Ace high flush.

my brain is a bit scrambled. feel free to say this makes no sense and ask me to clarify.

um can you put in the suits of the hands next time please,
it makes a world of difference for suited hole cards in Omaha.
because...
your first two examples, please don't be (to) offended but it looks like Hero does not know how to play Omaha, those are folding hands ~90% of the time unless you can make straight flushes with them..

The last hand I like the bet of $22


What I'm asking is: Can / should you play an open ended straight draw / wrap in a tournament / cash game with a flush draw on the board?

in general the answer is yes, if its isolation
min bet or check... fold to check raise.... reverse implied odds

Quote:

you want to be drawing to the nuts in PLO

that is a misconception and a leak to think that

assistance, he posted the suits... clearly visible to me

The suits are there.

I'm not offended since I'm obviously trying to improve my game. Your post doesn't help me at all. Yes, I don't play by the book but I can change that if you give me enough reasons to do so.

How are those folding hands? I tend to choose the aggressive approach on drawing hands since it allows me to win a big pot with the nuts, or push a weak top pair / two pair off the hand.

In hand 1, I'm a 60%/40% favorite on the flop, with 14 outs on the turn IF he actually made the straight. He might as well be on the same draw as me.

Hand 2, I'm a 40%/60% underdog on the flop, but improve to a coinflip situation on the turn.

Quote:

that is a misconception and a leak to think that

Why?

Viticus wrote:

One thing I do feel the need to mention is you might want to be careful w/ K or Q high flush draws. Im not saying dont play them I just think often if you play them too aggressive you will end up not hitting enough and then when you do someone will have the Ace high flush.

Yes, that's why I only play these flush draws in combination with a straight draw, 2 pair, overpair, etc.

In case the opponent's on a Ace high flush draw, the odds of hitting the flush are rather slim and due to betting out on the flop, I will more often than not take down the pot with the second barrel on the turn.

In case he hits his nut flush, and re-raises me, I should be able to fold my J or Q high flush if it isn't too cheap to call.

on hand 1... i think this hand should be a fold preflop. i dont want to play this hand out of position. the 2 is essentially useless which leave you playing three cards. also, i would probably check that turn. he doesnt always have 56 here but i think check/call is the better line on the turn.

on hand 2... i dont mind anything until the turn. i think this turn is a check call as well. You do have top set but this flop smacks most player's ranges right in the face. its an aggressive bet on the turn and he wont call without the straight. however, i dont think too many players call that flop w/o the straight hitting them on the turn. (may be biased here because i know the outcome.)

on hand 3... is tricky but i dont see myself laying it down on that flop. i expect him to have some kind of wrap draw or maybe top set (although we have a Q so that likely hood is reduced). I have no problem with how you played this one. (although be careful raising hands like these UTG)

I hate drawing hands in Omaha. Since more cards are dealt to each player you likely have fewer outs than you can typically count on in hold'em. In the first example you had 3 spades so 1 out was dead in your hand. If I'm on a draw in Omaha it doesn't take much to get me to fold.

i personally wouldnt chase a straight draw on a flush board on flop, even if it was a wrap draw, but you have to be aware some players WILL, my response is to the 1st hand, btw when that 4 hit the board, best thing to do was to check and then just call, hoping to hit your flush or higher straight

sorry, images didn't show cause they are off site
security first, looking like an idiot second



in general the answer is yes, if its isolation
min bet or check... fold to check raise.... reverse implied odds

Quote:

Your post doesn't help me at all.

its not about playing by the book, but you never gave yourself the chance to see where you were at, every hand you tried to buy the pot. So you committed yourself on a draw...You can think how your draws your the favorite but when u look at it, your the one losing money.. forget the odds, forget the book.. look at the money, its a cash game not tournament.

that is a misconception and a leak to think that you have be drawing to the nuts in PLO
why? cause you won't be dealt the nut hands often enough
if your only gonna play big pots then sure, great strategy hope u don't get sucked out on

Quote:

forget the odds

what

I play a different style, so I won't comment on most statements. I think people "chase" too much in PLO. I prefer to be patient and wait for that "spot" where I am pretty sure I will win with out being outdrawn. I know that because of how most people play, I will get action.

But, in tournament play, I think playing the draws is much more important in the later rounds.

Hand 3 I think is a horrible call though. Can't say it was bad calls in hands 1 and 2, but I would have checked the turn. On the opposite side, my question qould be how many times do you bet the turn like that and get called. If rarely ever, then keep doing it because you will win more on the hands you can steal than you would lose on the hands you would get called on.

Quote:

But, in tournament play, I think playing the draws is much more important in the later rounds.

And it is important to play them strong.

Assistanc3 wrote:

that is a misconception and a leak to think that you have be drawing to the nuts in PLO why? cause you won't be dealt the nut hands often enough if your only gonna play big pots then sure, great strategy hope u don't get sucked out on

If I am drawing to the nuts then I will be the one sucking out, first of all. Secondly, I think the biggest flaw in the PLO game at lower stakes is that people can't really value bet their hands. You will see people play top two, top set, and open endeds the same way. So if any time I put all my chips in the middle I have a high probability of making the nuts by the river, this cant be a leak.

Obv., this can't always be the case. As nothing is exact in poker, I just think as a general rule you should be looking to hands with more nut potential. as in hands 1 and 2 you shouldn't ever feel comfortable getting it all-in. it may be the correct play against certain opponents or certain situations but i dont feel like it should eb a common place.

Rockbottom87 wrote:

Quote: forget the odds what

My thoughts exactly.

mrdick2u wrote:

Hand 3 I think is a horrible call though.

What? Are you folding top 2 with the nut flush draw?

mrdick2u wrote:

On the opposite side, my question qould be how many times do you bet the turn like that and get called. If rarely ever, then keep doing it because you will win more on the hands you can steal than you would lose on the hands you would get called on.

That's the point. Those 3 hands are examples out of a couple thousand hands. I picked them because those were the first hands that I found, where you see the hole cards of the opponents (with a straight on a flush draw board involved, which was the initial question of this thread). On every hand that I lose like that, come about a dozen where I managed to take down a decent sized pot on the turn or get the money in on a coinflip situation or slight underdog and end up a winner to double up.

You don't have to imagine me playing every pot and constantly firing the 3 bullets. That is obviously not the case.

Horoeschio wrote:

mrdick2u wrote: Hand 3 I think is a horrible call though. What? Are you folding top 2 with the nut flush draw?

What can I say...big bets scare me. But, I think there are too many things than can beat me/outdraw me and not enough to help me. But, like I said, I play a different style. That is why you win much more than me.

honestly i think hand 3 is the best played hand.

you are about a 67% favorite on the flop. His play play is pretty bad because the only way he can be a favorite in this hand is if you dont hold the flush draw.

Now to extend this thought and answer your original question, this is why its important to have more than one draw. I don't think you can be shoving it all in with only the wrap w/ a flush draw out there. you need to have some kind of combo draw to really be shoving it in. whats important to note on this hand is BOTH of your draws will beat his. Your flush obv. beats his straight. However, your full house draw also beats his straight.